ForumsTips & TricksHow to Track Larger Tasks
How to Track Larger Tasks
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jpv2112-s |
Has anyone figured out how to use TD to conveniently track larger projects/tasks that will require a lot of time to complete, and still show up in some kind of priority list based on time and due-date?
For example, you have a project due in 3 weeks, and you anticipate it will require 40 hours of work. The TD tools available would have this appear on the priority/importance/due-date lists as being due in 3 weeks (beneath smaller tasks that are due sooner), but most certainly, you cannot start working on it in 2.5 weeks. It would be nice to see this appear near the top of some list today based on the time-required and date due. I've asked this a few years ago, but the available TD options weren't conducive at the time. Obviously, productive people would spend the time to convert such a large project in to smaller manageable tasks before digging in, but in the very beginning, projects are often simply a due date and an estimated time-to-complete, so it would be good to be reminded that the project needs attention today based on its size and due date. Any ideas? |
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coolexplorer |
There are several approaches one could take. Just some ideas which may trigger others.
1. Put really major projects as a Goal, then add tasks under the Goal view for that project. 2. Separate Folder for each major project or projects and tasks and sub-tasks under that. 3. Prepare a Custom search view using Context and Tags for a project and Sort by Parent/sub-task, then Importance. 4. Use Start dates as well as Due dates to give enough time for completing tasks (or the task length field in hours). 5. I Star the Parent title of Projects that I always want in my Today's To-do list, so that I always have it on my radar and I can do something everyday on them. 6. I have a Daily Custom search view list for repetitive tasks which are scheduled during the day using number tags from 1 to a20. Some Projects or Daily Habits feature there. I am sure experienced TD users will have other better approaches. |
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silkedandy |
A larger project receives a folder, each of which can have multiple projects and subtasks. I use a tag MIT for most important tasks. Once a week and sometimes for the next day, I will assign projects and tasks (subtasks) the tag MIT. It's a short list to keep those items that need to be done or be on the radar (like a project).I would set up a query based on tab MIT and folder name. Because all of my lists are sorted by importance, the MIT are then ranked accordingly. As a side note, my tasks are also prioritized, selectively starred, sometimes given a due date, always assigned a folder, etc. I hope this helps.
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jpv2112-s |
Thanks for the replies.
It sounds like there's no method without having to "manually" create and reload extra lists in various views and constantly look for the "gotchas" out there, such as tasks that should be started earlier than the single metric due date would normally indicate. Begin rant: I would think the usefulness of TD to most people is to offload one's mind of all the responsibilities and be able to focus on one thing at a time (ala GTD). Ideally, we could write in all the tasks in to the TD database and RELY on it to remind us what we should be doing today in one list/glance/page. The "holy grail" would be a tool that we could dump in our plans, responsibilities, available time, etc., and have TD show us what we can reasonably accomplish with our limited time and resources, which items are in danger of not getting done, what we should be working on today, this week, this month, etc. With the current system, there are too many work-arounds and extra effort needed to manage TD that often renders it a net time-suck rather than a productivity booster, or at least makes it marginally more useful than more popular services like Evernote. Most people here already know how to make list in a Google docs spreadsheet and sort it by "priority" or "due date" or whatever we choose to add to the spreadsheet, so TD must be fundamentally better than this free and easy method of creating lists. I would think if TD wants to remain competitive with the many alternatives, I would hope they would keep working toward making it an intuitive time-saving productivity tool as a top priority. Over the years, most of the TD development has been in fringe areas (lists, outlines, habits, visuals, etc.). GTD is working on a major cloud service for implementing their system, and unless TD stays true to it's original purpose, it'll be quickly forgotten when the GTD service is released. As an example of the lack of attention to improving the core to-do list management, after years of TD development, we still cannot make a saved search for a parent goal and have the child goals appear (i.e., no way to actually use the potentially useful hierarchical goal structure). We still have to spend a lot of time finessing our real-life plans and tasks to fit in to the limited TD database fields and hope that the "importance" algorithm does what WE want it to do, and hope that no balls get dropped. The new TD features like lists and outlines (perhaps conceived to be a project planning tool?) are bizarrely divorced from task-management making them a useless appendage and a waste of development time, in my opinion (the mobile apps have been a good use of time, in my opinion). I understand the context that TD is a company with limited development resources, implementing changes to a live working database is very complex, and changing established behaviors/lists for us paying customers would be potentially disruptive. However, I feel that the new features that TD has spent their development time on in the past few years are not very useful especially compared to leaving the core to-do list product to wane. AFAIK, TD remains the best tool for to-do list management but it's far from perfect. TD has always been a poor to mediocre tool for the sister task of project planning. (I would think people who want a to-do list manager would also be looking for project planning tools.) I hope TD refocuses on their original core product, but I know that other companies are spending time to create better to-do/project planning products, and given TD's trajectory, I don't think they'll soon be competitive with the other options. If a TD employee is reading this, don't bother writing "these features are on our list, and we cannot comment on the timeline for implementing them." I'm just addressing the odd prioritization that TD leadership has chosen over the past 4 years. This message was edited Sep 17, 2015. |
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Salgud |
Posted by jpv2112-s:
Thanks for the replies. It sounds like there's no method without having to "manually" create and reload extra lists in various views and constantly look for the "gotchas" out there, such as tasks that should be started earlier than the single metric due date would normally indicate. That's why there is a Start Date field. |
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TheGriff_2 |
Posted by jpv2112-s:
Begin rant: I think the issue is two-fold here and neither of the problems relate to Toodledo. First, the GTD book does not discuss how to handle projects all that well. The new addition does better than the first edition but it still left me wanting for more detail. Because of this lacking in the methodology people are forced to derive their own systems which leads to the second problem. I think most of us are using the features of Toodledo because they exist and not because they make our systems any better. At it's core GTD only needs lists of items. You need one project list and one list for each of the contexts you'll be using. This basic methodology I believe is best accomplished through the use of folders. Make one folder called "Projects" and then one folder for each context. Turn off most of the extraneous fields, including context and you have an uncluttered GTD system. This opinion is bolstered by the numerous times I've heard David Allen refer to the Palm tasks app as the perfect system. That app relied on folders with very little other data. For some reason people, myself included, tend to want to associate each task with a specific project and within TD there are numerous ways to do so. Some use tasks/subtasks, others folders, still others tags. Then you get into goals, which you mentioned, and the field becomes even muddier. I agree that the goals section needs to be rethought so that it's easier to distinguish between s/t, l/t and l/l goals but it really doesn't have to be part of any GTD system. I think Toodledo's complexity is what generates the often seen complaints regarding the need for workarounds. Indeed TD has everything needed to be a good GTD system but because of its options many are lured into over-engineering their systems. As I've written this post I've been thinking about the fields I should turn off in Toodledo to make my experience better. I've found myself defensive of the fields I know are not needed (anything but Folder is unneeded) and I doubt I'll wind up turning any of the fields/features off. I have to wonder on a philosophical level whether the angst felt about organizing tasks, in any system, is really a reflection on our desire to do the tasks. I'm thinking more and more that I add bells and whistles to force myself into doing a task (e.g. vacuum has a due date) or to feel better about doing the task (e.g. vacuum contributes to a life long goal). |
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TheGriff_2 |
Posted by jpv2112-s:
GTD is working on a major cloud service for implementing their system, and unless TD stays true to it's original purpose, it'll be quickly forgotten when the GTD service is released. I doubt their cloud service will do much to disrupt any of the current apps. For one I expect their pricing to be targeted at the C-level meaning the average user won't be able to afford service. I also think will stick to a basic design so as not contradict the book. If they add too many bells and whistles people will wonder why such strategies aren't referenced in the book. |
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TheGriff_2 |
Posted by jpv2112-s:
Thanks for the replies. It sounds like there's no method without having to "manually" create and reload extra lists in various views and constantly look for the "gotchas" out there, such as tasks that should be started earlier than the single metric due date would normally indicate. Going back to try my attempt at answering your initial question. In this case you will need to have a single task on your list: "Brainstorm project X". I would suggest storing that brainstorming session inside a note within Toodledo or your favorite notes manager. Once you check off brainstorming you need to add the next appropriate task to the correct context list so that it's part of your daily review of contexts. As you check off an item be sure to add the next and so on. Normally one would add the next available tasks to their lists during a weekly review but for a large project due in only a few weeks a more frequent review is needed. In fact you may want a daily repeating tasks of "Review Project X" to remind yourself on a daily basis. Of course this requires addition of a field that wouldn't normally be found in the basic GTD system I mentioned previously. As I think more and more about my replies to this post and my 100th attempt at implementing a GTD system I realizing one must think about how to use a paper based GTD system before trying to move to a digital system. |
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Ummagumma |
2OP: Is it one task or a number of smaller tasks ?
If the number of smaller tasks under one project, create a separate folder or assign a tag. If that's just one large task that would take xxx days to complete, use the start and due dates. The whole idea of a "Start date" is to trigger a reminder on the day that you must start working on that task in order to finish it by the due date. In practically all Calendar programs, there's an option to show all tasks between start and due dates (i.e. "In Progress" tasks) on Today. You can make the process as complex or as simple as it can be. I used to follow the GDT system to the tee but pretty soon found myself spending too much time maintaining my task list. So instead of helping me to keep my workload down it added to it. I finally developed a system that is simple enough and works for ME. It may or may not work for YOU. In a nutshell: - A "Project" is not a "Task" and does not belong in the same list. A project is something you plan. A task list is the result of that planning. Having projects and tasks in the same list leads to confusion. You can still keep them all in Toodledo and use filters / custom searches to hide the projects. I actually prefer doing my planning in a separate program altogether and only export individual tasks in my task list. I use iThoughts on iPad and the free version of XMind on desktop, only because I find the mind mapping approach easier for planning stage + I can attach files to individual entries (iThought and XMind can use the same file and sync through Dropbox). And copying tasks from projects file to Toodledo only takes a moment. - A task does not have to have dates. I only assign dates to tasks that have a deadline. I only assign start dates to tasks that I absolutely must start working on in advance to meet that deadline. All other tasks have no dates and instead get Tags - This week, Next week, This month, Sometimes. The ones I will work on next are starred. I never have more than 3 starred tasks at any given time, as a matter of principle. I go through my task lists 2-3 times a week and assign tags. For all other times, I set up a custom search that only shows the tasks that are "immediate": - Are starred, OR - start today, OR - have due date in the next 2 days, OR - Have "This week" tag. So my task list which can be anywhere from 30 to 300 tasks depending on the workload, is cut to very manageable size for daily work. I far prefer using tags vs dates because tags can be assigned / reassigned very quickly both on the desktop and on phone or tablet, while changing dates is more of a PITA. I stick with Toodledo mainly because it's one of the very few services that have Start date feature, plus it's got a great filtering feature, and (important to me) syncs with Pocket Informant. Although Wunderlist does have a couple neat tricks up their sleeve (beautiful interface, file attachments in a free version). I've tried all other services and find them severely lacking. This message was edited Sep 18, 2015. |
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jpv2112-s |
Thanks for the replies and spending the time to write down your tips.
My main disappointment at this point is how TD had great promise years ago but has for the most part been neglected. I realize now that my attempt to use TD "goals" was a bit of a waste of time since they (still) cannot be used/searched hierarchically. TD Folders doesn't seem like a good solution because they too are not hierarchical--they're just another "custom" flat field to be used as desired. Just about all the available TD tools are quirky and "almost" usable for goal-planning, but ultimately not much more useful than a vanilla database. The fields have the interesting names like "length" and "start-date" and "goals" which lure you in to putting data in to them, but they don't do much more than record simple data (i.e., sort/search by length, or start-date). Why not at least offer to calculate the due dates and lengths and warn the user that there's not enough time? TD is more powerful than most to-do list manager products but I think it would be better to offer the user a blank set of database fields and let the users decide how to track their tasks--perhaps offering templates to start. Generally, there's no automated way inside TD to plan a project and send actionable line-items to the schedule/task tracker. In TD, one can create a "goal" or folder for a project, but then there's no page to plan that task--just the ability to create tasks and assign them that goal/folder. Unless you're a genius or the project is dead-simple, no one can simply list the tasks that need to be done without thinking on paper or having a place to record project notes. Therefore, I do most all of my planning and strategizing in Evernote (it has outlines, tags, and even checkboxes), and TD has for the most part become for me a simple recurring to-do list to remind me to check the oil on my vehicles from time to time. Any project scheduling is done manually by cut-n-pasting tasks in to TD from another separate tool like Evernote. Back to my original desire of tracking larger tasks: Of course, we all need to manage our lists/tasks and often manually. If we have a large task due in 5 weeks that takes 3 weeks to complete, we should start this week. I'm just hoping for a tool that will let me know that I'm overloaded next week and should not commit to something I cannot deliver on. TD is most definitely not that tool (and neither is anything else AFAIK). To me, start-dates are not all that useful except to indicate that one CANNOT start something early. I assume we all operate first from due-dates, then priorities, then fill-in where the traditional GTD contexts & available time allow. I try to never assign due-dates to anything unless I've made a commitment to someone to deliver by then. (I'm sure people have different opinions about assigning due-dates to one's personal goals, but for me it's arbitrary pressure, and I try to work from my priorities as much as possible.) Many replies suggest making several TD searches to see different goals. For me, that's a net loss of efficiency because for me the purpose of using a tool like TD is to see one list or view that tells me what I need to do so as not to miss any due-dates (and hopefully more about whether I'm able to commit to new tasks and projects). Having to remember to flip through several lists is to me a failure of the system--I could just as easily flip through all my Evernote project journals (which can be organized in much the same way as TD). However, I can see value and do use separate searches for context-based tasks (e.g., phone-calls, or anything under 20 minutes). Anyway, thanks again for the suggestions. I'll have to spend more time thinking about how to make the available tools useful to standard goal planning and task tracking. |
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Ummagumma |
If you need a resourse manager the one well working tool for that - that I know - is MS Project. You assign yourself as a resource and assign time to tasks and assign these tasks to that resource and it shows you how much time you have already allocated. But using it requires a lot of discipline and more importantly being able to accurately assign time to tasks; otherwise you're going to be constantly in the red.
Or just use Calendar (any) and treat each task as an appointment, assign dates and times you will be working on it, then use free time finder to see if you have any time left. That again requires careful planning and realistic understanding of time it takes to do something. If you're THAT loaded, a simple Task list manager won't do. |
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Ummagumma |
Oh, and to add - I think you misunderstand the way saved searches work. The whole idea of a custom search is to limit your list to what you consider important while never missing on a due date. Automatically.
I.e. I made a search condition that any item that has a due date within 2 days or a start date on today will be shown, otherwise the only items that are shown are the starred ones (i.e. "do today / next") or the ones I tagged "this week". So I don't miss dates yet filter out the ones I don't plan on working that week. |
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wksims86 |
Based solely on due date and time-to-complete, there's not a great way to do this. You can accomplish some of what you are looking for by using other fields, but it's not going to be a full-blown project management solution. You'll need different software for that.
Two time-saving hacks I would suggest: first, use stars to mark elephant tasks -- the ones you have to start eating early and choke your way through, for which planning or breaking into subtasks may be difficult. Second, use start dates to your advantage. The "due optionally on" option can help as well to create artificial interim deadlines. For tasks that I haven't offloaded to project management software (I'm alpha-testing my own design), I use start dates to know what I need to be working on right now versus the non-critical tasks like the someday/maybes which don't get a start date. By showing tasks where the start date has elapsed, I get a short list as to "things I should be doing right now." The downside is that start dates won't account for task dependencies (i.e. you can't start task Y until task X is complete). Only project management software does that. I agree that project management utilities are more appropriate for what you are asking. However, following on e20's suggestion, I'll add that MS Project is an F-35 to the bow and arrow that is Toodledo. The amount of knowledge that must go into the project management tool far outpaces its usefulness for many people unless you are in a corporate, distributed environment. MS Project is one of the most robust, and complicated tools out there. Most businesses have a dedicated project manager, if not more, using that utility. That kind of hands-on requirement is far more onerous than the inconvenience of running custom searches. There are other project management applications out there that are more approachable, but there is not much that fills the gap between "robust to-do list," of which Toodledo rounds out the top, and "corporate project management utility." Even a very basic one like Wrike costs well over 30x what Toodledo does, and I wouldn't say very well. The biggest thing Toodledo lacks that would help here is task dependencies. Project management utilities can create Gantt charts that show task dependencies mapped across due dates. Toodledo doesn't have this function, so you will have to manually hack your way around the tasks. |
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Ummagumma |
You can figure out how to use MS Project on your own in two weeks, using available online help. It will require spending at least a couple hours a day going through the help menu and trying things out. I've been somewhat proficient with MSP after a 3-day class. However, it's one of these skills you tend to lose if not used often. And I've never found a good way to use my MSP files on iPad or an Android device. Also, it's not free or cheap.
Honestly, unless you really need it due to the sheer complexity of your work, it's like using a nuke to get rid of a tree stump. |
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Salgud |
Posted by e20.09g:
You can figure out how to use MS Project on your own in two weeks, using available online help. It will require spending at least a couple hours a day going through the help menu and trying things out. I've been somewhat proficient with MSP after a 3-day class. However, it's one of these skills you tend to lose if not used often. And I've never found a good way to use my MSP files on iPad or an Android device. Also, it's not free or cheap. Honestly, unless you really need it due to the sheer complexity of your work, it's like using a nuke to get rid of a tree stump. Having taught and consulted on MSP for many years, I'd say you could glean a very basic understanding of MSP in 2 weeks. My experience is that it would take at least a year to get proficient with it, if you're using it to it's full potential (CPM scheduling, managing resources, tracking costs, etc.) I've met, and taught, people who've been using it for years and have no conception of how it works of how to use it properly. Most people use it to generate a Gantt Chart, and no more. I agree that it's overkill unless you have a decent sized project with multiple resources and simultaneous work efforts. It's well worth it if you use it to it's full potential. |
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Ummagumma |
I should have been more clear - in two weeks, you should be able to master resource loading for one person (which is what the OP seems to be after), and the concept of critical path task management.
Using MSP to it's full potential with large teams, interlinked projects, costs, reports and so on... that's usually a dedicated paid person. Or a whole team. |
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jpv2112-s |
Thanks for the additional suggestions. I've used Project in various positions over the years and agree that it's more cost and maintenance than I'd want, in addition to not being portable. I want need Gantt charts per se, just an indicator of how full the days are based on due dates and task lengths (or at least whether there's not enough time to complete a 80 hour task in 2 days).
I believe our lists should be as small as possible: just things that must be done (based on due dates), and then other items that we want to work on (priorities, context, etc.) Therefore, I still don't see the point of using start dates save indicating that a task cannot be started until a certain date (e.g., tax returns usually cannot be started before 1/1, but are due 4/15). So start dates are not conceptually very useful (but many here are using them as a hack to see what larger tasks should be worked on since larger tasks are lost in TD's available sortings). I'll keep thinking about it, but thanks for the suggestions. |
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Ummagumma |
The main reason for start date is to make sure the task is started early enough to meet the deadline.
Say I need to create a presentation for a meeting scheduled in 3 weeks. I know that I need 4-6 hours to put all the information in it & massage it to where it's actually presentable. Taking into account all of the meetings & unexpected "drop everything" last minute tasks, I must start working on that presentation at least 3 days before it's due. I also don't want that task clogging my calendar until that time. So I assign a start and due dates to it, and set up my calendar program (I use Pocket Informant) to only show me the tasks that are in between start and due dates, or are starred. I do my planning for the next couple of days in Toodledo, and assign a star to the tasks I want to work on next. This way that task will be hidden from my calendar view until I either star it, or it hits the start date. |
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jamezzz |
jpv2112-s, one system you might take a look at is MyLifeOrganized. I used it many years ago and recently took a look at it. It's come a long ways. Offers virtually unlimited hierarchy, very powerful search and filter features, fairly nice outline and task views as well as an interesting calendar view unlike any I've seen. They support iOS, Android, Windows, Mac and they offer a means to sync between those platforms. Ultimately, I stuck with Toodledo based on cost, TD's web implementation and the syncing between web and iOS is just simpler.
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Salgud |
Posted by jamezzz:
jpv2112-s, one system you might take a look at is MyLifeOrganized. I used it many years ago and recently took a look at it. It's come a long ways. Offers virtually unlimited hierarchy, very powerful search and filter features, fairly nice outline and task views as well as an interesting calendar view unlike any I've seen. They support iOS, Android, Windows, Mac and they offer a means to sync between those platforms. Ultimately, I stuck with Toodledo based on cost, TD's web implementation and the syncing between web and iOS is just simpler. From your own words, sounds like you're "stuck" with TD because it's considerably better for you. |
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