ForumsNewsNew Section: Outlines

New Section: Outlines

Author	Message
vivendom.budget	Posted: Jun 13, 2013 Score: 2 Reference vivendom.budget Posted: Jun 13, 2013 Score: 2 Reference Good work ! Normally, the procedure to "solve" my tasks is allways the same and as a consequence i follow the same outline for each kind os task. Will you have the ability to link a task with an outline template or you need to create/clone a new outline for each new task? Thank you!
HeartMama7	Posted: Jun 13, 2013 Score: 0 Reference HeartMama7 Posted: Jun 13, 2013 Score: 0 Reference I just wanted to thank you for this new outline section. I'm finding it very helpful! Blessings to you! :) This message was edited Jun 13, 2013.
gyrox007	Posted: Jun 14, 2013 Score: 0 Reference gyrox007 Posted: Jun 14, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Can I just also chip in and say this feature is exactly what I've been looking for, this is really useful for project planning, great work toodledo team! :)
strativourakis	Posted: Jun 14, 2013 Score: 0 Reference strativourakis Posted: Jun 14, 2013 Score: 0 Reference I agree with other commenters that if subtasks were better refined (and worked at all in the iOS apps) then that would probably be better and simpler overall as I'd have one less thing to manage. Now I have notes and tasks, while the functionality that Outlines brings to the table is great, I'm a little worried of adding a third item that I will have to manage.
SRhyse	Posted: Jun 15, 2013 Score: 0 Reference SRhyse Posted: Jun 15, 2013 Score: 0 Reference I actually moved to MyLifeOrganized from Toodledo after some years because of a lack of hierarchy in a substantive way, among some other reasons somewhat tied to that in terms of functionality. I still like and respect Toodledo as a service, however, and am glad to see a more full fledged solution for hierarchy is finally being implemented. I'd have stayed if it'd been implemented sooner. With it, a missing link in functionality seems in the process of being filled.
shelbyp	Posted: Jun 17, 2013 Score: 2 Reference shelbyp Posted: Jun 17, 2013 Score: 2 Reference I am using the Outlines actively now and I love it! Great work toodledo! in fact I realize, that most of my tasks/subtasks/folders are not really tasks at all, they are much more suited for outlines, I was using the tasks as a way of doing a brain dump... My task list has now been substantially reduced and replaced with outlines... As my top request and as others have suggested, I would also vote for some way to easily link an outline to a task. This would provide an easy way to to perform the fine grained task management which is sometimes needed and better modeled by an outline than a subtask hierarchy.
km19144	Posted: Jun 18, 2013 Score: 1 Reference km19144 Posted: Jun 18, 2013 Score: 1 Reference Just noticed the Outline tab this morning and I'm really excited about it...! I agree with shelby.p (above)... Having an outline linked to a task would go far to address my need for finer granularity with Tasks (i.e. define the "end result" at the Task level and work within the outline to make it happen). However, I also forsee how this model would have limitations (example: a line item in an outline suddenly needs a Due Date, additional Notes and an Alarm attached to it...) Maybe a good MVP would be to allow an line item to be converted into a task that - at first - inherits the parent Task's Folder, Goal, Context, etc... If the outline is NOT attached to a task, then those properties would be blank/default. This feature, I think, would be a very quick thing to do (after you create the first feature of connecting an outline to a task...) Lastly... A big +1 for getting Outline into iPhone app ASAP.. Good Luck and you just kept me for another year...!!!
Ann M	Posted: Jun 18, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Ann M Posted: Jun 18, 2013 Score: 0 Reference I just realized that this was added and I like, strativourakis, am speechless and am overcome with joy. I have been wanting this functionality in any software for years. I had it with Lotus Notes, but now that I am forced to use the microsoft platform I am without. For me, you have just expanded the use of your product indefinitely by adding this feature. I will forever be a happy customer.
Purveyor	Posted: Jun 18, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Purveyor Posted: Jun 18, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Posted by acc.mcpherson: I had it with Lotus Notes, but now that I am forced to use the microsoft platform I am without. ?? Okay, not exactly the same but Outlook Tasks and Appointments have multi-level lists, and Microsoft Word has had very powerful outlining since 1990. Google Tasks allows unlimited nesting. Google Documents and Evernote allow nested bulleted lists. TreePad, a powerful tree-structured data manager, has been available since 1995. If you're looking for a simple online outliner, there's Oak Outliner and, for teams and sharing, there's Checkvist. Various mind-mapping programs have been available for years, e.g. MindJet and TheBrain. And there's the simple and very cool Text2MindMap. Mobile/desktop solutions: LifeBalance has had outlining for several years, first for Palm and then for iOS devices, along with desktop software for Windows and Mac. MyLifeOrganized has extensive outlining and is available for iOS, Android, and Blackberry. It offers WiFi and Cloud syncing, and Outlook synchronization. Outliner by CarbonFin for iOS devices has been available for several years, and offers website/device sync. Android Outliner offers Due Dates and Status, along with Dropbox syncing and OPML import/export. If you want to visualize your ideas in a mindmap and sync with various desktop mindmapping software, there's iThoughts for iPhone and iPad. Toodledo Outlines? Well, it's here ... This message was edited Jun 19, 2013.
Torbjörn Hedberg	Posted: Jun 19, 2013 Score: 1 Reference Torbjörn Hedberg Posted: Jun 19, 2013 Score: 1 Reference Thanks guys, I'm sure I will use it when it gets connected to tasks. Until then it doesn't quite fit into my daily workflow. But I have one question: How do you delete an outline?
Purveyor	Posted: Jun 19, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Purveyor Posted: Jun 19, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Torbjörn, there's a tiny garbage can in the top right corner. This message was edited Jun 19, 2013.
Oceanus	Posted: Jun 19, 2013 Score: 1 Reference Oceanus Posted: Jun 19, 2013 Score: 1 Reference Hoping that in your design goals that you have it as a criteria to stay true to GTD principles, and not introduce unnecessary feature sets & complexity to what is currently the best GTD app available. IMO, it would be a huge mistake to morph into yet another online MSProject clone, at the expense of tight GTD logic and support. While I have nothing against outliners, once the corporate types start calling your new feature "WBS," and whining for more corporate complexity in that element, you'll be doomed. What's going to happen is that users will end up doing duplicate data entry between outlines and task/subtask hierarchy, and lose focus (and time) in the jumping back and forth. David Allen has always been a proponent of simpler lists, which you've already provided with folder, tasks & subtasks. Allen has taught that the more complex a list becomes, the less likely one is to "get things done." This message was edited Jun 19, 2013.
Jake Toodledo Founder	Posted: Jun 19, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Jake (Founder) Posted: Jun 19, 2013 Score: 0 Reference We want Toodledo to be flexible enough to support any productivity methodology. If you want to stay true to GTD and keep simple lists, then you can do this, perhaps by ignoring the outline section if you want. The outline section is a useful tool for certain purposes. For example, just today I created an outline of the steps needed to manually test a new feature for this website. I had 120 steps with various levels of indentation. As I went through the outline, testing things, I would check them off. When I was done, I used the toolbar button at the top to uncheck everything so that I could run through the checklist again. For me, this was a perfect use of an outline (as a reusable checklist). It would not have been efficient to make 120 tasks for this purpose. I guess what I am saying is that it's the right tool for certain jobs.
Oceanus	Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Oceanus Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Jake, thanks for your reply. You make excellent points, and I certainly can't argue with reusable outlines to improves processes and workflow. I fear your statement "flexible enough to support any methodology," however. GTD brings a lot of customers to you. Unfortunately, too many users don't really understand and internalize GTD concepts. (They want to do GTD, but don't want to read David Allen's books!) So if the app doesn't impart the GTD discipline, the user ends up disappointed in GTD, because he thinks he's doing it, but doesn't see the results. Just my two cents ....
Purveyor	Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: -1 Reference Purveyor Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: -1 Reference Posted by stephenmichaelso: I fear your statement "flexible enough to support any methodology," however. ... So if the app doesn't impart the GTD discipline, the user ends up disappointed in GTD, because he thinks he's doing it, but doesn't see the results. Don't be afraid ... ;) The app doesn't impart the GTD discipline because the app can't impart the discipline. As David Allen has said many times in his recordings and videos, GTD is a mindset and a set of skills. It is independent of the tools that you use to develop the mindset and acquire the skills. In any case, Jake does not follow GTD, nor do most Toodledo users, based on my experience on these forums for the past five years. As for David Allen, take a look at this video: TheBrain and David Allen. Now that's an outline!
Oceanus	Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 1 Reference Oceanus Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 1 Reference Posted by Purveyor: The app doesn't impart the GTD discipline because the app can't impart the discipline. [...] GTD is a mindset and a set of skills. It is independent of the tools that you use to develop the mindset and acquire the skills. Purveyor, thanks for the reply, but that's just nonsense. Carpentry is a mindset for getting certain things done, but without the right tools, you're making huts out of sticks. Same with any other "mindset" for getting things done -- skills, discipine, and tools have to work together and mutually reinforce ... but effective tools are very important. I agree with you about most people not doing real GTD, because most people don't want to read the books and inculcate the mindset. It's a real problem, because GTD has become an increasingly meaningless term ... it's tacked onto virtually every to-do app, most often by developers who want to sell, but who have also never read David Allen's books. For many years, Allen tried to be tool-agnostic while the GTD ecosystem took root. Now he's realized that the heart and soul of GTD has been lost by the myriad of "GTD" apps that really aren't. See this link for his approach to rectifying: http://goo.gl/ygBAX
Purveyor	Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Purveyor Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Posted by stephenmichaelso: Same with any other "mindset" for getting things done -- skills, discipine, and tools have to work together and mutually reinforce ... but effective tools are very important. I didn't say that tools aren't important. I'm saying that tools don't "impart discipline". Do you disagree? Anyway, what do you use for tracking big projects and big ideas?
Oceanus	Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 1 Reference Oceanus Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 1 Reference Posted by Purveyor: I didn't say that tools aren't important. I'm saying that tools don't "impart discipline". Do you disagree? Yes, emphatically, I disagree. Give a set of plumber's tools to an electrician, in place of his own, and ask him if it won't mess up his mindset, or discipline, or workflow. People attempting to learn and apply real GTD need GTD-specific tools. Otherwise, it ain't GTD ... it's just another to-do thingie masquerading as GTD. We have enough of those now. what do you use for tracking big projects and big ideas? LOL -- depends on what your definition of "big" is. I use ToodleDo, in combo with Ultimate To-Do List on my phone, for 80% of my GTD workflow. I use wjjsoft's myBase as a container for stuff that's more outliner- or reference-oriented; i.e. having a lot of hierarchy, links and/or attachments.
Jake Toodledo Founder	Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 0 Reference Jake (Founder) Posted: Jun 20, 2013 Score: 0 Reference This conversation is getting off topic. May I suggest that someone create a topic in the "Getting Things Done" forum on this website to discuss how to use Toodledo with the GTD method?