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Purveyor

Posted Aug 13, 2012 in: Hiding future tasks
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 13, 2012
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Take a look at the Help topic How can I hide tasks that are due in the future?
Purveyor

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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 13, 2012
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The Sort order is the same for all views, whether it is Folders or Contexts or any of the other available views, e.g. Goals, Tags, Status, Priorities and Locations. Whenever you change the Sort, it affects every view.

This is one of a few big differences between the website and Toodledo iPhone app.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 10, 2012 in: It's not me!
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 10, 2012
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OK ;)

This message was edited Aug 10, 2012.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 09, 2012 in: Manual Sorting Emulated
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 09, 2012
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And you've already gone somewhere else, right?

Toodledo's limitations don't demonstrate the beauty of free competition. They demonstrate the reality of limited resources and limited capabilities, resulting in watered-down compromises. But, as long as those compromises lead to enough functionality, then the end result will have enough value that some people will use it. Some people will even pay to use it.

Jake has done a good job. We'll see whether the competition can do something better. So far, I think that they haven't.

Anyway, I genuinely appreciate your insightful comments. Thanks again.
Take care.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 09, 2012 in: Manual Sorting Emulated
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 09, 2012
  • Score: 0
You left out the word "enough": important enough, interesting enough, doable enough. Jake is the sole arbiter of what is enough.

I found three relevant quotes by Jake:
http://www.toodledo.com/forums/1/7343/-38321/read.html
We listen very carefully to our users, but you have to understand that user requests are only one variable in our prioritization. We also consider other things, such as our resources, skills, complexity of development, competitor actions, interestingness, business impact, etc.
http://www.toodledo.com/forums/1/7343/-38531/read.html
One thing to keep in mind is that only about 3% of our users have ever set foot in the forums, and an even smaller fraction have posted a comment. So, what you read in the forums shouldn't really be used as a general barometer for the desires of the entire user base.
Different ordering of tasks for different searches:
This is something that is on our to-do list, but the main purpose of this idea is to save 2-6 mouse clicks. While this is certainly important, it is not what we would call a critical feature, so we have been focusing more on things that cannot be done at all, like mobile access and sharing. We will get to it eventually.


This message was edited Aug 09, 2012.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 09, 2012 in: Manual Sorting Emulated
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 09, 2012
  • Score: 0
Well, it's obviously not important enough, or interesting enough, or do-able enough for Jake. He has said that he uses those three criteria in deciding what to do next. He also kind of, sort of takes into account how many requests he has received for a particular feature but he doesn't give any special weight to the requests in this forum.

In essence, Jake wants the Toodledo development process to be a Black box:
In science and engineering, a black box is a device, system or object which can be viewed solely in terms of its input, output and transfer characteristics without any knowledge of its internal workings, that is, its implementation is "opaque" (black).


This message was edited Aug 09, 2012.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 09, 2012 in: Manual Sorting Emulated
Score: 0
  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 09, 2012
  • Score: 0
Posted by Folke X:
Hmm. I can be a bit sloppy at times.
Anything short of perfection will not be tolerated!! ;)
Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense to me.
What they do have is a more "premeditated" usage system out-of-the-box - you do not have to create your own system using saved searches or anything; just sign up and go; you do not even need saved searches at all. And they both, especially zendone, have more powerful project handling.
I agree. Toodledo is the most customizable online task manager that I've seen but it is not a "system". It is a collection of tools that allows a huge range of methods to be used but it is not optimized for any given method. Jack of all trades, and all that ...

I still use it, mainly because of the synchronization with my iPhone and iPad. But I have spent far too much time customizing it and trying to get around the many limitations. FWIW, at our company I have developed a fairly sophisticated task management system for our employees and it does a good job (it is directly linked to our customer database) but it some ways it is not as powerful as Toodledo (I am not a full-time programmer), it doesn't sync with mobile devices, and we don't have the resources to take the functionality to the next level. For now, I will continue to use Toodledo for my personal tasks and some of my work tasks, until something comes along that I think is better.

BTW, have you seen my list of possible improvements: http://www.toodledo.com/forums/2/14676/0/possible-improvements-and-new-features.html

Thanks again for your comments.
:)


This message was edited Aug 09, 2012.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 09, 2012 in: Manual Sorting Emulated
Score: 0
  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 09, 2012
  • Score: 0
Posted by Folke X:
Hmm. Yes, we probably misunderstand each other here and there, but that's alright. (For example, I did not mean that the user should be able to edit the "hidden" field, but never mind.)
Uh, you're right! (Of course.)

But, I don't understand what you meant by "enabled by user" and why you would want more than one hidden field. Ultimately, there is only one order for any list, no matter how many fields you used to arrive at that order. When a user chooses a Manual sort, the hidden field would have the numerical representation of that order, i.e. first task on list is "1", second task "2", and so on.
Obviously my original "3-in-1 quick-edit" suggestion was aimed at the first of these only. It would allow, for example, people who use Linenberger's method to avoid all the clicking involved in manually adjusting the Priority and Start date. Or moving a task from Hold into Next action etc.
Seems to me that this could be solved by having another feature that has been requested: The ability to edit multiple tasks without having to use a Search, e.g. click four tasks and change the Start Date for all of them to next week. This feature is available in Appigo's Todo (although only for one field at a time), and it also has the ability to sort tasks manually, although I see that it changes the values of the first sort column, which can be one of only two fields: Due Date or Priority.

But, now that you mention Linenberger, according to my reading of his method, there are only two fields to sort -- Priority and Start Date -- and I didn't see anything about manual sorting. If you are using his method, why are you "an enormous fan of having a manual sorting order"? Seems that I missed something.


This message was edited Aug 09, 2012.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 08, 2012 in: Manual Sorting Emulated
Score: 0
  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 08, 2012
  • Score: 0
Posted by Folke X:
But one global sorting order, an extra hidden field that can be enabled by the user, is very straightforward, and it will probably go a long way already.
Perhaps it will, but that's different from what I was talking about. When I said "hidden" I meant hidden forever from the user. If the field is going to be edited by the user, then it might as well be visible. For example, there are some users who put numbers in fields like Tag or Duration to fine-tune the sort order, or they add a prefix to the task name.

I proposed the hidden field as a way of having the Toodledo program do the sort after a user moved a task manually so that the sort order could be saved and would be available even after using a field-based sort. All the re-numbering would happen internally, and the user would see the end result of a reusable sorted list. But now I wonder whether the extra field is necessary.

With three sorts and up to 19 fields, it should be possible to get very close to the ideal sort order for each user. The manual sort is only for those users who want the tasks in precisely a certain order that is unattainable with a field-based sort (or requires more than a three-level sort) and who want to make a fine adjustment to the current list. This could happen by turning on "Manual Sort" which would first keep all tasks in their current order and then allow the user to move the tasks around. But, once you go to a field-based sort, the manual order would be lost.

As for the "disappearing act", it does make things simpler from a database viewpoint (no extra field to store and track) but I'm not sure whether it makes things simpler from a programming viewpoint.

In any case, I'm not too keen on manual sorting because I would rather not have to add more mouse clicks to the several hundred that I have to use each day in Toodledo to navigate among the Views, the tabs within the Views, the sort order and filters within each View, the tasks within each tab, and the fields within each task. Using saved Searches is a partial solution to all this bouncing around but the sort order is not stored.


This message was edited Aug 08, 2012.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 08, 2012 in: Manual Sorting Emulated
Score: 0
  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 08, 2012
  • Score: 0
Posted by Folke X:
Purveyor's suggestion is a "true" manual sorting order, just one single global sorting order but still probably quite useful.
Hey! I didn't say anything that's "true" ... ;)

Although I mentioned having just one hidden field, I was thinking of having a separate manual sort order for each View, but I realize now that it would involve a more complex database structure. Perhaps it's better to start with a single global sort order that would be available in all Views. It might even work if the manual sort order disappears when you go to another sort or another view -- the manual sort is a "one off" view.
if at the outset you have your manual list in perfect order, and then work in an auto-sorted view for any length of time - add tasks, change tasks etc - and then revert to the manually sorted view, then it will be in disorder, worse and worse the longer you have left it. But maybe this is not as bad as it might seem? Maybe if you use the manual view often enough it will be OK? Especially perhaps if the yet-unsorted tasks (all new or modified tasks?) are collected at the top under a divider heading called Unsorted? Maybe that would work?
I agree, especially if the new unsorted tasks remained at the top.

Anyway, you have some good suggestions and some good questions. :)

Edited to add:
I've done a bit more research and it seems to me that the manual sort order should be a temporary sort, a type of "fine-tuning". There's little reason to save the order.

For example, you have a list sorted by Due Date and you have several tasks due today. You want one of these tasks to be at the top of the list. You could "Star" the task, and sort the list first by Star and then by Due Date. That would work. (Actually, I use this method now.) But what if you have two Starred tasks and you want one of them at the top? (I don't think it matters, but I can see why some people would want it this way.) You could give the task a High Priority and sort your list by Priority, Starred, Due Date. But what if you still have a tie?

A manual sort would allow you to nudge up various tasks to put them in exactly the right position. But, as soon as you go to another view or you sort the current view by various fields instead of by "Manual", you lose your manual sort and you go back to the "Automatic" sort, which, if set up properly, should give you a pretty good idea of what to do next.

Now, if we could have separate sorts for each Tab in a View, and if we could save the sort order with Searches ...


This message was edited Aug 08, 2012.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 08, 2012 in: Manual Sorting Emulated
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 08, 2012
  • Score: 0
There are several mobile apps that allow manual and automatic sorting: Todo, 2Do, Any.do, and I think Ultimate Todo.

A quick Google search found these two applications:
VIP Task Manager
Fusion Desk.

And the most powerful sorting and filtering I've ever seen in a task management application is in My Life Organized.

It is definitely possible.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 08, 2012 in: Manual Sorting Emulated
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 08, 2012
  • Score: 0
It's possible that your idea has the seeds of a brilliantly simple approach to manual sorting, and it's possible that Jake can use your suggestions to take Toodledo to the next level, but it seems to me that it would be more difficult to implement "emulated manual sorting" than it would be to have actual manual sorting.

Right now, the "drag and drop" function is used in two ways: 1) to turn a task into a subtask, and 2) to manually sort a list of subtasks. You are suggesting that it could also be used to do this:
Then imagine you grab a task somewhere and drag it to a position near a task with Priority 2, Start date June 25. When you release the task Toodledo would copy those 2-3 fields (the sorting order fields) from the list position into your task all at once, which means that from then onwards your task will appear in approximately that position in the list, simply because those fields now have those values.
...
When dragging to a point between two categories, e.g. Prio 2 and three, then consider the divider position, if any; if no divider then copy fields from task above; if no task above then copy from task below. For dates, length and other "continuous" values I believe interpolation would probably be the most appropriate, wherever possible, e.g. when dragging to a point between start date Jun 25 and Jun 27, put Jun 26.
So, when you grab a task, Toodledo has to:
1. know the sort order of the current view
2. know the field values of a task that is "near" the cursor
3. copy the field values (from that task) that are used in the sort
4. edit the task that is being dragged so that it has those same field values
5. resort the list of tasks to display the new order

Toodledo has 19 ways to sort a list. Five of those ways involve fields that are not editable: Date Added, Date Modified, Date Completed, Distance, Importance. With most of the other fields, there is nothing to "interpolate or reconcile", e.g. Folder, Context, Goal, Repeat, Tag, Status, Star, Location.

I think that if you examine some of the other possible sort combinations (besides Priority and Start Date), you'll see that your approach will not work, or it will be counterintuitive, or it will be very difficult to implement.

There is a relatively simple (though not necessarily easy) way of implementing manual sorting:
1. Create a hidden field that is used to track the sort order.
2. Have an option for "Manual" in the first Sort dropdown. When "Manual" is chosen, the other two Sorts are no longer available.
3. Use "drag and drop" to change the value of the hidden field based on the position of the task in the list. (Basically the way that Subtasks can currently be sorted.)

Whenever you choose "Manual" sort, the tasks are sorted by the hidden field. Whenever you choose some other Sort, the View is sorted by whatever combination of fields you've chosen.

Seems possible to me.


This message was edited Aug 08, 2012.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 08, 2012 in: Task Keeps Repeating
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 08, 2012
  • Score: 0
If you are using the official Toodledo iPhone app, then you probably have Synchronization set to "Sync on Edit". If you turn this to "OFF", you won't see the new task after you complete the original task.

Also, are you sure the new task has the same day, month and year?
Purveyor

Posted Aug 08, 2012 in: URL To Improvements
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 08, 2012
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Purveyor

Posted Aug 03, 2012 in: changing from subtask to regular task
Score: 1
  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 03, 2012
  • Score: 1
Take a look at the Help topic Explanation of Subtasks and go to "Creating and Moving Subtasks". You'll find this:
To remove a subtask from its parent task, just drag it out and drop it off to the top, bottom or side.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 02, 2012 in: Hide based on time
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 02, 2012
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So, if we request it several times, then you'll get around to it? :-)

Given that you already allow filtering out future Start Dates, doesn't it make it sense to add the ability to filter out future Start Times?

Or, maybe you need a Round Tuit.
;-)
Purveyor

Posted Aug 02, 2012 in: Hide based on time
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 02, 2012
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This is a strange one, though.

Databases have fields that store date and time, e.g. DATE, DATETIME, and TIMESTAMP in MySQL.
There are several Date and Time functions that can be used to filter by date and time.
Toodledo already has a setting for Time Zone.

Given that tasks can be filtered by Start Date, it seems that it would be easy to filter by Start Time. Unless the database structure is highly unusual.

Also, it makes sense to filter out tasks that have a Start Date/Time in the future. There are tasks that I can't start until the late afternoon or evening and I don't need to see them on my list throughout the day.


This message was edited Aug 02, 2012.
Purveyor

Posted Aug 01, 2012 in: View Completed Tasks
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Aug 01, 2012
  • Score: 0
Well, you're not the only one who can't find completed tasks.

Take a look at this:
http://www.toodledo.com/forums/2/14822/-71506/cant-find-completed-tasks.html

And here's the answer: http://www.toodledo.com/info/help.php?sel=126


This message was edited Aug 01, 2012.
Purveyor

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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Jul 30, 2012
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Purveyor

Posted Jul 28, 2012 in: Subtask Display
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  • Purveyor
  • Posted: Jul 28, 2012
  • Score: 0
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